Okay, today I logged into Bloglines only to be blasted with around fifty different people talking about Shaun Inman’s new Mint web stats tracking application. I think I will stick with WP-Shortstat and AWStats, thank you very much.
I don’t think most people really took an objective look at this new application being released.
First off, we have the $30 fee. Now I know when you look at the development hours that were put into the application this may seem pretty small, but have you compared this application to the rest in its field for cost, for features? AWStats? Shortstat? Urchin? These products and all of the others I can think of off the top of my head are 100% free. Doesn’t this sort of make Shaun the Microsoft of web stats? Ignore the user interface, because as interesting as it is, it is not that amazing.
Another thing that is really bugging me is the fact that everyone is tripping over their feet to pat him on the back, as though he did something different, or even new. He just added AJAX and a nice set of graphics, which I find both a little slow to load.
Also, I like looking at numbers as much as the next person, but with all of them crammed onto the screen in alternating cell colours, it really does not convey to me what I am looking at. I feel like I am missing something, and the comparisons are just numbers which honestly, over a period of time, lose all meaning. Where are the graphs, and pie charts?
On to the programming side of Mint, and we are left with a Stats program that I can’t view properly in Internet Explorer. Not a big deal as Firefox is my browser of choice, and anything buy IE is the browser of choice for most Web Developers, and thus Mint’s target audience, but what if I am at a friend’s place that lives on IE and I want to check my stats? Sorry, Shaun does not support that. My choices are to then convince my friend to install a browser that is “better” cause I say its better, and thus allow me to view my stats, or I wait until I get back to the safety of my Firefox installed PC.
On the tracking side Mint uses Javascript to track the users coming to the site. I know many people, especially my computer literate friends that have turned off Javascript on all sites, and that means they won’t be counted. I want my friends to be counted.
I know that so many people are going to defend Shaun and his Mint, but I really don’t think it is worth $30. As a free utility I might have tried it, but after seeing the demo, I doubt I would have kept it as my primary tool.
It really comes down to a simple numbers game. As much as Shaun deserves some compensation for his work, does he really deserve $30,000 for every 1,000 licences? I think he will probably be able to do atleast 1,000 over the first year, and maybe another 100-200 a year after that if he add updates.
I know he has the Pepper API, and that may be either a very helpful addition, or it could be a costly trend, as people add features that should have already attached to Mint on release. Will the developers of the additions charge for their code if they consider their feature worth having?
Do you really need a stats program that uses AJAX, just because it uses what is currently an “in” technology to use and is made by Shaun Inman. When there are hundreds of other stat tracking applications out there?
Like I said at the beginning, I think I will stick with WP-Shortstat and AWStats, and I have a feeling that more and more people will agree with me as time goes on.
NOTE: I tried the demo of Mint on another site, so for those saying I don’t know what it does, I have tried it. I have played with it, and that is how I know how responsive it is, and what its features are.
Update: I have added another look at Mint after using it for a while now. Read about it.
Mint = Overrated! by Blogging Pro Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 12:24 am
[…] David has done a little writeup of Mint entitled Choke on a Mint. I think it hits the nail on the head. Another thing that is really bugging me is the fact that everyone is tripping over their feet to pat him on the back, as though he did something different, or even new. He just added AJAX and a nice set of graphics, which I find both a little slow to load. […]
Elliott Back Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 2:28 am
I haven’t quite understoff while the Mint software is so good, but that’s because I’m content-oriented and not presentation.
Michael Moncur Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 3:05 am
Correction: Urchin is not 100% free. It’s not even 5% free for that matter. It’s $199 a month for the hosted version. It’s hard to find the price for the software version these days, but it’s way more than $30.
I know it’s included in some server contracts (including mine) but that doesn’t mean it’s free.
I use Urchin and I think it eats Mint for breakfast, but it does cost considerably more.
Gerard McGarry Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 5:42 am
All fair points, David.
I know Shaun is very highly regarded in the Web community, but when you’re on a budget - like I am, and many of my clients - you’re looking for open source solutions.
I’ve not heard any compelling reasons to buy into Mint, other than the celebrity endorsement from other bloggers (who may have beta tested and got free licences themselves)!
For me, I’ll stick to BAStats for WordPress!
Julian Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 9:32 am
This is a great article, exactly what I’m thinkin.
Jeff Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 9:48 am
the Urchin software is $900 for the default 100 site license
David Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 11:19 am
Thanks Jeff. So that means $9 a site for the most part. And as for the earlier notice of $199 for a hosted version…how many sites does that support? I know there are other paid pieces of software out there, but from a user perspective…if my host has Urchin, for me, its included in my hosting price, not an addition.
As for the expanding powers of Mint, I agree, they are nice to have, but don’t you think more Pepper API ready programs should have already been written and released for the $30? And who is to say that when they are released, they will be free? Could there be a free widget, and a paid widget? Every developer that comes up with a Mint addiition may decide that their time is worth some cash too.
It just starts a bad trend in my opinion, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Michael Moncur Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 4:28 pm
The hosted version of Urchin is $199/month for a maximum of 50 sites and 100,000 pageviews, with a $99 charge per million additional pageviews.
That’s $4 a site, I suppose, although the pageview limit is a killer. Even my not-that-popular weblog gets nearly 200,000 pageviews a month, and for my most popular site, I’ve calculated the cost to be well over $1000 per month.
Considering that Mint’s target market is probably people who have a couple of small sites, Urchin may look very expensive by comparison.
You can’t beat Urchin’s features, though, and it’s had the same “referrer spam proof” JavaScript feature for years.
David Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 4:36 pm
Thanks for coming back Michael and letting me know the rest of the information.
Putting Urchin aside, and looking at Shortstat (the little brother to Mint) and AWStats, you have two pretty good programs right there, and with many applications having tools to monitor stats, and almost every hosting company providing stats, and so many free providers of stats, I just don’t get where $30 for an AJAX version of Shortstat is really worth it.
Maybe I, and a few others are just crazy…
Q Daily News Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 5:20 pm
An assess-Mint
Over the past two days, it’s been hard not to notice the excitement around the world of weblogs about Mint, Shaun Inman’s new web stats app. I’ll admit that after reading some of the posts by Mint’s beta testers, I…
Webdiva Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 6:11 pm
Minty Fresh
Shaun Inman has launched Mint, a web statistic program.
…
XeroCool » Have a mint? Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 7:39 pm
[…] After I read David’s post about Mint, a stats software for your web server, I decided to post my own little story off it in which may have some off his words in this post, but that’s ok. […]
TechMasses » Blog Archive » Said,
September 7, 2005 @ 11:35 pm
[…] After I read David’s post about Mint, a stats software for your web server, I decided to post my own little story off it in which may have some off his words in this post, but that’s ok. […]
Mike D. Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 12:22 am
So, David… I guess I just need something explained to me: why is it necessary to call someone like Shaun “the Microsoft of web stats”? It’s clearly a statement meant to denigrate and I just don’t see the parallel, or the reason why anyone would suggest such a thing. Here are the facts as I see them:
1. Shaun’s provided a lot of free awesome stuff to the world… like IFR, Shortstat, CSS SSC, etc, etc. Not to mention just generally design and code inspiration.
2. Shaun works nights and weekends for several months to provide what he and some others believe to be a stat program that addresses a lot of people’s needs.
3. Shaun releases this program for $30.
As I see it, you either a) appreciate the program and gladly pay $30 for it… or b) are already happy enough with the stat program(s) that you have and don’t see the need to spend the $30.
What I’m not understanding is why it goes anywhere past this point.
Why would you question whether or not Shaun “deserves $30,000″? Why would you compare him to Microsoft at all? Is he forcing bad software on you and making you pay for it? He is doing neither. He is presenting his hard work and giving you the opportunity to purchase and use it if you’d like. Nothing more, nothing less.
It’s easy to lobs shells from the peanut gallery at things which may not fit your fancy, but to question the motives or “deservedness” of someone like Shaun to be compensated fairly for his work is a bit out of line. A product which no one will pay for is overpriced. A product which everyone will pay for is underpriced. Somewhere in the middle is the “correct” price. It might also interest you to know that Shaun did not even come up with the $30. Almost every single beta tester did. It seemed right then and it seems right now. There will be those who think this is too much and that’s a natural economic occurrence.
David Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 10:28 am
Wow, okay…I did not expect to really step on too many toes with my review of Mint, but I guess I should have known that those that like the product or Inman would come to tell me so.
First off Mike, let me say, that I totally respect your opinion. And I might have gone a bit overboard with the Microsoft of Web Stats, but how I see it is that someone with a big web presence made a program which has a sub-par feature set, and is selling it for a price that makes me cringe.
Had the price of Mint been $10 and had better multi-site licencing, I probably would not have been so upset.
Do you know what you are getting with Mint? Do you know that you will get supported forever? What about the Pepper API’s…how will you find them? Shaun did not set up a community, or even a page for resources on this.
Where is the information on how to make Pepper plugins?
Microsoft has released many free products as well, but does that mean that every copy of Windows is worth the starting price of $200? What about $300? I really don’t think so.
I think that prices have to be brought more inline with the competition. Like Microsoft, the only reason Inman’s Mint is so big right now is the marketing, and names behind it. Everyone wants to try out what he created because the “Web Experts” say its great. I just wanted to write an article that could give people pause for a moment, and really think about what they are buying.
I think there are many great things about Mint. And I think it could be a great application eventually, but I think there are just too many negatives and also not enough information to justify the price, and I think the only reason he can ask that price is because of his name, and his friends in the web community.
And as for your mentioning of the Beta Testers… Don’t get me started on them. Everyone knows they were a very select group chosen to be big names and to create the hype that Inman wanted.
Mike D. Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 12:17 pm
Have to disagree on just about all counts once again.
1. You call Mint’s feature set “sub par”… I and many others call it “just right”. This translates into you not wanting it and various others wanting it. This is just fine. It’s sub-par *for you* (even though you seem to need two programs to get everything you need… meaning the other two are sub-par as well).
2. You mention a $10 unlimited site license as your price of choice. The cost of a martini in New York? Why not just make it free at that point? $10 is pocket change and you know it. To suggest that that is the “fair price” for something like this is to suggest it is basically worthless.
3. With regards to “knowing what you’re getting” and Pepper and communities, etc, etc, go to haveamint.com and hit the “Forum” link. There you will find your community, your listing and discussion of new Peppers, and many other things.
4. Pepper documentation is coming. It appears people are so eager to get started though that they aren’t even waiting for it. There are already several nice third-party Peppers available and all were made entirely without the docs. Guess the product might be pretty well designed…
5. You again bring up Microsoft and its pricing strategies, and I still don’t see the parallel. Microsoft has a monopoly. That is the problem. You pretty much “have” to buy their software if you’re in the mainstream Win/Tel world (which is like 90% of the population). Yes yes, I know you can buy Apple or Linux, but they are still more or less a monopoly. So when they upgrade a product of theirs, you are pretty much compelled to “give in and buy it” at some point and THAT is the problem. Mint is so not even close to this that I don’t understand the connection. It’s a little stat program. If you don’t need it, you don’t need it.
6. I totally resent your accusation about how and why beta testers were chosen. To hype the product? Not even close. In fact, it was me who first suggested about two weeks ago that we do a series of posts. Blame me for that… not Shaun. We’ve all been testing for several months and at no point in time was there a “plan” to hype the product. Step back for a moment and think about what you’d do if you were developing a product you needed help on but wanted to keep secret. Who would you ask to help you? You’d ask a small group of your most respected friends and colleagues on the web. You’d do so knowing you’d get full confidentiality (no leaks), great feedback and feature requests, and testing under high traffic conditions. Your suggestion that this process was at all nefarious is naive and totally unsubstantiated.
Matt Thomas Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 12:55 pm
“I did not expect to really step on too many toes with my review of Mint”
I think calling it a “review” is perhaps too generous, but that’s not even my point here.
You didn’t expect to step on toes?
You call Shaun the “Microsoft of web stats,” accuse the beta testers of being a claque (for what, thirty bucks and a pack of tic-tacs?), then explain why the software is basically worthless to you, and thought that wouldn’t step on any toes? Stepping on toes is the only thing you could have intended to accomplish.
That, and some free publicity for taking on that Goliath that is a four-day-old, $30 piece of software. Yeah, you’re really sticking it to the Man.
David Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:02 pm
Hey Matt,
I still hold by with what I said. It is an over priced, underfeatured application with a smattering of the “in” technology AJAX.
The beta testers are a claque. If I did not have to pay $30 for something and all I had to do is give my opinion on it, I would take that deal. The fact that these people loved it, is great for Inman, but I think they only said such nice things because it was from Shaun. I think people would have a very different opinion if someone like myself released Mint.
I find it sad that you think the only reason I did this was for attention. I could say the same thing about those writing positive reviews on the software. I wrote this peice because I don’t understand why so many people flooded my feeds with praise and saying how revolutionary Mint is, when I tried the demo…all I felt as that it was lacking so many things, and was not as responsive or interesting as it was hyped to be.
I personally felt cheated. I waited with high interest for this product as WP Shortstat is based off of Shaun’s Shortstat app. Then to see how limited the usefullness is, and then the cost. It made me really sad.
I am not saying Mint is useless for me. I am saying it is really useless for everyone. I was hoping for something to replace AWStats, and have a community much like WordPress, and be as amazing as other releases from Inman, and I did not get any of that.
I am not trying to “stick it to the Man”. Though I am sure Shaun would be happy you called him “the Man”. I am just asking people to remove their Mint coloured glasses and take a more objective look at the software they are getting, and to think about improvements needed.
To say this software is perfect or even great for that matter, is a matter of opinion, and I was hoping to see people come with valid thoughts and objections.
I will note that people have been fast to begin using the Pepper API, which is great, and it seems they have been released as free additions so far.
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:04 pm
I wasn’t going to say anything here, because I totally respect your opinion on both the product and the price of Mint — but then you dropped that bombshell about the beta testers.
I’ll have you know that I wrote Shaun and asked to be a beta tester. I can’t speak for anyone else, but Shaun most certainly did not track me down because “I’m a big name” (which I’m not).
There’s no question that the series of posts some of the beta testers chose, of their of own volition, to write helped hype Mint, but that was not Shaun’s idea or plan at all. As Mike said, he suggested it (not Shaun), and not all beta testers even took him up on it.
For the record, not all of the beta testers are what I’d call “big names” (myself included). Certainly there were a few on the list (Shaun happens to be friends with them, and he chose his buddies to help him test — can you blame him?), but there were also some testers who you’ve probably never even heard of (there were a few I didn’t of know before the testing period). I believe Shaun simply used some of his trusted friends and some people who asked to help very early on as beta testers.
Frankly, your entire post sounds like jealously. You don’t like Mint? Don’t think it’s worth the price? Fine. Don’t buy it. But talking the time out of your day to publicly lambast it just sounds like sour grapes and jealously, to me.
But your jealously doesn’t affect me, so I wasn’t going to say anything– until you suggested the beta testing process was some kind of manipulative plot and scheme to make Shaun money. I, as a beta tester, am offended at the suggestion. I couldn’t help but respond.
Zach Inglis Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:08 pm
I have to agree, I was the first one to comment on the price.
I respect Shaun Inman but the price is too much for such a program. Even the best (such as John Hicks) get paid nothing for their blogs.
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:22 pm
If I did not have to pay $30 for something and all I had to do is give my opinion on it, I would take that deal.
I didn’t know that I was going to get a free license until the beta testing was basically over. I did it because I liked ShortStat and wanted to see what Shaun was working on and provide my input.
I personally felt cheated. I waited with high interest for this product as WP Shortstat is based off of Shaun’s Shortstat app. Then to see how limited the usefullness is, and then the cost. It made me really sad.
Cheated? CHEATED? As if Shaun, or anyone else, OWES you something? If you liked ShortStat better, keep using it. Shaun had no obligation to make something you would like. Did he ever promise you anything? How in Go’d name could you have felt CHEATED? That’s the most absurd thing i’ve ever heard.
I am not saying Mint is useless for me. I am saying it is really useless for everyone.
Only you’re wrong. The sheer number of positive posts about it suggests many people find it useful.
I am just asking people to remove their Mint coloured glasses and take a more objective look at the software they are getting, and to think about improvements needed.
That’s a great suggestion. If that’s really all you were doing, no one would be complaining. Instead, you’re being a troll.
If you want to come out and say “Mint doesn’t really do it for me and I think it’s overpriced in comparison to other stats programs,” fine. But don’t come out and lambast Shaun and beta testers for their hard work just because Mint didn’t live up to your wildest dreams. You’re being a dick, plain and simple. A critical review is one thing. being an asshole is another.
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:26 pm
And one more thing….
I wrote this peice because I don’t understand why so many people flooded my feeds…
Oh, now they’re YOUR feeds? I was under the impression the post I made to my own blog ended up in MY site’s feed. Sorry, but if you don’t like the possibility an article you disagree with could come across in a particular feed, then unsubscribe from it.
Damn.
Peter Akkies Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:26 pm
Very well spoken. When I first heard about Mint, thoughts were racing through my mind what a neat little app this was going to be and that I’d be downloading and installing it immediately. Because Mint was hyped by all these well-known people, I think many people were under the impression this was going to be a free release as a sort of friendly nod to the community.
Then, Mint was released. I saw a “purchase” link on the website. I said “f*ck” to a friend of mine on MSN, who was also waiting for Mint to be released. He replied similarly. I can fully understand why Shaun would charge for Mint, but I got a heavy impression it was going to be free. I think for a part this is because people wrote about this being the successor of Shortstat and also partly because most web applications like these are free.
Of course Shaun has put a lot of work into this. Of course he wants something back for it. But for some people who won’t need support for it $30 may be a little too much. Those people include me. I think this post was meant to highlight some different opinions than all the praising of Mint and I think it’s a great post. A pity about the beta tester remarks, but still nice to hear an opinion somewhat in line with mine.
Ryan Mahoney Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:34 pm
Before I get started, let me just say that I haven’t purchased Mint, nor do I intend to because I just don’t have much need for it. That being said, this logic of this review is flawed. I can only guess that the auther is jealous of Mr. Inman’s success, and has written this review to call attention to himself by riding the Mint-hype-train.
Look at it this way, he got where he is by serving others. He put his thought and time into projects both free and commercial which others benefit from. You should consider doing the same, because you aren’t going to get anywhere with weblog entries that are so poorly conceived and serve only your own fragile ego.
Don’t hate… congratulate.
Scott Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:41 pm
“I respect Shaun Inman but the price is too much for such a program. Even the best (such as John Hicks) get paid nothing for their blogs. “
This comment doesn’t make sense to me. John Hicks may not get paid for his blog (and if he did, why would it matter?) but he gets paid for his graphic design skills (and yes, you can view his work on his blog.) How is Shaun’s situation any different? He’s promoting a private business venture, on his personal blog.
Are you suggesting that if someone keeps a personal blog, they are no longer allowed to charge for their work?
Mike D. Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 1:51 pm
I am not saying Mint is useless for me. I am saying it is really useless for everyone.
That might just be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. A 22-year old kid who has done absolutely nothing in this industry proclaims that he knows what’s valuable and what’s worthless for the entire world. I’m done here, Solomon. When you grow up and learn what individual opinions and preferences are, then maybe you’ll be worth listening to.
Matt Thomas Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 2:03 pm
“If I did not have to pay $30 for something and all I had to do is give my opinion on it, I would take that deal.”
Your lack of personal integrity notwithstanding, I can do little else than to assure you that I was fully expecting to front the $30 for the software because I liked it. The fact that we got free licenses has absolutely nothing to do with my decision to test the software and I’m pretty sure the testers who didn’t post about their experiences with Mint got the same deal.
Jeff hit the nail on the head, though. What I optimistically perceived as looking for attention appears to simply be downright trolling. No point in continuing the discussion.
If I could put it in 72pt type I would; If you don’t like it, simply don’t buy it.
Jason Santa Maria Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 2:08 pm
Seriously man. I can smell the sour grapes from here, Sebastian. You are spouting off a lot of assumptions as fact, you are just dead wrong on most counts. If you want to put forth worthwhile opinions that people will give consideration to, do some research.
Beta-testers were asked to be so because we are friends of Shaun’s. He knew that we would give it to him straight and help him develop Mint to be all it could be. IT WAS OUR IDEA, not Shaun’s, to write what we thought about Mint. Do you know why? Wait for it… because we liked it. We do not have on mint colored glasses, it’s because, *gasp* we like something you assume no one is capable of liking. Something that no one could eeeeeeever find useful. Step back and look at what you are writing here, champ. It downright reeks of jealously and cries for attention.
Jason Santa Maria Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 2:17 pm
Sorry Sebastian, I meant to direct that at Solomon. I was thrown off by the line in the footer. Apologies.
Jason Santa Maria Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 2:24 pm
Argh. Make that David. I give up. I need sleep.
Jacob Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 2:33 pm
Wow, looks like a storm is brewing here. I don’t think anybody meant to step on anybody else’s toes.
I think the main thing that is trying to be conveyed is the disappointment in what the software actually does. It doesn’t do anything special. It looks good and it uses ajax. That’s about all you can say about it(not that these are bad things). Some people might find it worth it just for these 2 things.
Matt - I think he doesn’t like, and I think he’s not going to buy it. Since when does he not have a right to post his thoughts about something?
Maybe David brought up some points that needed a little more thought before posting. I know I’ve done that myself. You live, you learn.
You’ll notice there are several trackbacks to this post where people are agreeing wholeheartedly, so he’s not alone in his opinion. Anyway, everybody just needs to relax instead of making personal attacks. Why can’t we all just get along ![]()
Zach Inglis Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 2:55 pm
Ok. I just realised my comment sounded like I agreed with the whole thing. Far from it. I meant; that i agree theirs a price issue.
Adam Thody Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:00 pm
I think one point that hasn’t been brought up (or I haven’t noticed), is the fact that Mint is not designed to replace programs like Urchin, or AWStats. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Mint, in my mind, is a great way to get a snapshot of your website activity. I can go to Mint at any point in the day, and get the vitals.
I can’t do that with AWStats, I have to wait for my cron to process my log files at 1am. Then, when I run AWStats, on my busier sites it can take up to a few minutes to process (and that’s if I do it every day). Not exactly convenient.
Is Mint an all encompassing, total web stat solution? Of course not, but then it was never designed to be. It is what it is, and for me, it was worth $30.
Looking forward to seeing some great Pepper in the future.
Jesse Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:02 pm
I dunno… there is a point here, even if you think it is a troll post.
It hit me as odd that all these posts appeared with little real information hyping a product that is kinda cool but _that_ cool? Not sure if the appearances of the simultaneous post-a-thon are fully appreciated. It can appear as an over-hyped log reader that uses an inaccurate technique to track users.
Yes you have a choice to buy it or not. I might actually buy it but only because I have been looking at using different methods to study users to one of our sites. It doesn’t remove the need to read your log files, but $30 for a slick presentation and process to track users will save me far more than $30.
But folks have just as much a right to post they don’t like it and state why they don’t just the same as those that blog their love for it.
Andrew Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:06 pm
The lack of empathy on both sides astounds me.
David Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:21 pm
Jeff Croft
Finally, a real person that has the inside look on Mint.
I won’t say anything about your popularity, as I do read your site pretty often, and really enjoy it, and so you are not totally an unknown if someone like me knows about your site.
It is good to hear from one of the Beta Testers though. I wish one of the Beta testers would release their experiences in a nice overview of the creation of Mint, as I am very interested to know how it got to where it is. Were you asked about the appearance, were you asked about the final price as was mentioned?
Also, I admit, it is nice to have it cleared up about the Marketing techniques that Inman put in place. Don’t you think though that he might have asked some of his friends, to say a few nice words about Mint? (No I can’t blame him if he did, but still…)
There really are no sour grapes here, as I never applied to be part of the Beta, nor could I have come up with the design or coding to create my own stats program. I was just hoping for more of the same from Inman, and was shocked when he changed his whole approach on design, coding, and marketing.
I would though like to applaud you for keeping track of some of the Pepper releases.
Oliver Nielsen Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:22 pm
I agree with you David, on the point that it is rather overpriced. of course I have 30 dollars, but paying 30 dollars for somehow less features that Shortstat, which is already installed on several of my sites, is somehow absurd.
Then, on the other hand, Shaun created Shortstat, which was free, and I feel I owe him a bit …
But even that said, 30 dollars for each site licence, is too much.
But of course he can price it as he wants, it’s a free world, and if it makes him rich, that’s ok with me.
This stuff kinda makes me think of Apple who just announced the iPod Nano, and discontinued the iPod Mini. So now you pay the same, for less storage space. From 4 and 6 GB to 2 and 4 GB.
You then get a color display, but so fuckin’ what - I’m not going to look at it, I’m going to listen to music.
Same situaltion with this Shortstat / Mint stuff somehow.
Brady J. Frey Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:30 pm
“That might just be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. A 22-year old kid who has done absolutely nothing in this industry proclaims that he knows what’s valuable and what’s worthless for the entire world. I’m done here, Solomon. When you grow up and learn what individual opinions and preferences are, then maybe you’ll be worth listening to.”
Jesus H. Christ. Not to push more buttons here, but where is the benefit of taking stabs at people, well, taking stabs? I know you’re intent is putting someone in their place with your industry experience — but this is beginning to sound a little more personal than I think it needs to be… which, in turn, makes it look as if his comments about marketing it straight from the in-crowd have some validity.
I tend to agree that Mint has more hype than bite, but I don’t agree with how it was presented here — or fought back.
I guess bad publicity is still good publicity, right? Good to know.
Josh Dura Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:34 pm
I respect Shaun Inman but the price is too much for such a program. Even the best (such as John Hicks) get paid nothing for their blogs.
Shaun is getting paid for a piece of software he developed, not for his blog.
and is selling it for a price that makes me cringe.
$30 is making you cringe? Oh come on, we pay 2 times that for sub-par video games, 3 times more than that for sub-par operating systems (Tiger included), etc… If $30 for a piece of software as good as Mint makes you cringe, then I wish you the best luck in the future finding a “good deal for your money”. Give me 10 minutes, and I could probably find 20 pieces of software for $30 (or more) that are ten times worse than Mint.
qrayg Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:39 pm
All of these so called “professional” web developers ripping on this article are pretty sad. Shame on you, guys.
I don’t agree with a lot of it but the dude has a right to post his opinion on his own dang site.
Jacob Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:49 pm
I don’t understand these jealousy comments. Do you honestly think he’s jealous just because he said he doesn’t like it? Seems to me some of you here are just trying to find a way to put him down. For those of you telling him to grow up, you should try taking a step back for a second. You are getting bent out of shape about a piece of stats software.
In fact, watch this, maybe it’ll lighten your mood.
Jon Hicks Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:51 pm
qrayg - Sure, he has the right to his opinion - no one is questioning that. Saying you don’t like MInt isn’t what the problem is here.
Going back to Mikes point- this post goes beyond simply ‘opinion’ to be become mud-slinging. Throwing misinformed, unfounded, personal insults at Shaun and the Beta Testers (hmmm, a name for a band perhaps?) simply isn’t fair. David knew nothing about how the software was tested or the motivations behind the posts, but threw accusations all the same.
There was no need for that - but surprise, suprise, it gets peoples backs up.
Jason Santa Maria Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:54 pm
He can post his opinion all he wants, I’m all for that. Same with everyone else here. BUT, I only ask that he has some evidence to back up a conclusion. Fine you don’t like the price, it’s a personal opinion. But if you drag other people under the bus with only assuming their motivations, well, that is just neglectful. Shame on me? Read what I wrote again. I am ripping on some of his uninformed conclusions, not on him voicing his opinion.
Joshua Kendall Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 3:58 pm
First off I was not a beta-tester, I am not a big name in the industry, or a name at all unless you talk to someone I have worked for.
I totally agree with Matt about you calling this a review. I have one question for you.
HOW THE FUCK DO YOU REVIEW SOMETHING WITHOUT USING IT? You don’t go and write a review on a movie without seeing it (well….maybe you do), but normal people don’t.
If you wrote a piece of software would you give it away? Hell $30 is well less then I would pay for it. Shaun might as well make it $60 because people who actually want to use it will pay it.
From now on I’m going to start offering it to my clients. They have a hard time dealing with Awstats (which runs on their servers, not by choice mind you).
Mike D. when you get a chance could you reply to my comment on your weather script.
Joshua Kendall Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 4:01 pm
Yes you used the Demo, but until you actually try something for longer than 10 minutes you can’t review it. That’s like seeing the first 10 minutes of a movie and then getting up and leaving.
David Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 4:05 pm
I used the demo for much longer than ten minutes.
I looked at the code. I played around with different things, and put in a good thirty minutes trying to find more things that I could be interested in. I looked for a graphing feature. I looked at the program as objectively as I could, and even took another stab at it the next day to see if I had been wrong about Mint, and yet…I still did not like the program.
I watched the full movie..thanks though.
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 4:14 pm
qrayg:
David does have every right to post his opinion on his site. My personal opinion is that he should have limited his opinion to the product and not to the people involved. But again, he has a right to bash whatever people he wants.
But…he’s given me the right to respond by allowing comments on his site. He chose to make slander me personally, as a beta tester, and I chose to refute it. Isn’t that my right, as well?
I am very offended by the slanderous assertion that I was paid to flatter and applaud Shaun’s work. David said these things with absolutely no evidence and he deserves to be called out for it, at least until he chooses to apologize to the beta testers.
swizen Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 4:28 pm
Mint’s success or failure will be an interested experiment to see if one can derive a living simply off fanboys. I’d suspect the market for Mint is smaller than Shaun would like, but I guess we will just have to wait and see. Surely bedfellow MediaTemple, (who gets advertorials on inman’s site) would be working on a one-click option.
And actually, I’ve been pretty tired of www.shauninman.com for quite some time. The blog has been dead, and now it has just become a link dump of everything Mint.
David Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 4:57 pm
Okay…here is my formal apology to the Beta Testers.
I am sure you did a great job in Beta Testing the program. I know many of you are Shaun’s friends and your opinion might be a little byast no matter how objective you claim to be. I for one did not see any errors appear when I was using the program, and the code looks pretty nice.
Therefore I must assume that the Beta testers of Mint did a great job, and I think they did the best they could with what they were given with.
I am sorry to any beta tester that feels offended in any way with what I have written. I had not seen anything written by anyone other than those close to Shaun during the beta phase, and so I assumed it was only his friends and people directly connected to him. I also think that you are very lucky to have gotten the inside look of the program before it came out, as no matter the program, that is a cool place to be.
Again, I am sorry to the beta testers of Mint.
David
PS - Jeff…I agree these comments are here to be used.
And that is why I have approved everything everyone has said without filtering it in the slightest. ![]()
Matthew Pennell Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 5:02 pm
Everyone loves it, no wait everyone hates it…
Mint is the new Scrivs!
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 5:07 pm
swizen-
I suspect at least a large part of the reason for the less regular blog posts on shauninman.com is Mint itself — I think it’s been taking up a lot of his time.
Mint’s success or failure will be an interested experiment to see if one can derive a living simply off fanboys.
Mint can only succeed (and it certainly has so far) if the product is high-quality and is well-liked by those who purchase it. “Fanboys” apparently will feel “cheated” if the product is not up to their wet dreams and doesn’t pay them to use it.
I have no doubt that some people bought Mint simply because Shaun’s name and reputation is attached to it. But, people by Apple products every day because of the name and reputation attached to it, as well. As long as those products are useful, well-designed, and efficient, the reputation of the manufacturer will continue to grow positively.
“Fanboys” can buy Mint, but they can’t sustain it long-term by being fanboys. They’ll sustain it long term if they truly love the product and will use their word-of-mouth support to gain Mint new customers.
So far, it seems that the vast majority of people who have Mint licenses are doing just that.
Marco Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 5:08 pm
This isn’t a review, it’s a (badly) veiled attack. It has some valid points but they are ruined by the troll-like nature of several remarks that are in the posting. I reviewed Mint too. It’s not all hallelujah in my text. However I didn’t get this kind of bar-fight like discussion after I posted it. In fact Shaun himself actually liked my review even though it’s not as ultra enthousiastic like some others. Writing a ‘review’ is one thing, showing some respect is another thing.
I’ve blogged about the great ‘marketing effort’ as well. I still think the whole thing with the ‘big names’ is a wonderfully executed example of how to hype a product (yes Jeff I think you’re quite a name compared to many bloggers, such as myself) but I just enjoyed the whole hype and I enjoy my decision to purchase Mint as well, even though I can see clearly it’s not for everyone. But Macs aren’t for everyone either are they? Yet I love working on my mac even though several people tell me I’m stupid for paying so much money for a nice anodized aluminium case. You get the picture I guess. Perspective, expectations, needs/requirements, etc. etc. blah blah. And oh yeah.. style.
If Mint works for you it’s worth the $30. If it doesn’t then I’d say just don’t buy it. There’s no obligation to buy it or anything now is there? I just fail to see the need to bash it and even worse: to bash the beta testers.
Just my $0.05
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 5:10 pm
David-
Apology accepted. Thanks.
Jeff…I agree these comments are here to be used. And that is why I have approved everything everyone has said without filtering it in the slightest.
I have to say, I did notice that you were approving these comments, and I certainly commend you for doing that. A lot of people would have taken the pussy route and not allowed them at all.
The Dredge // Blog Archive // Please, no more pathetic mint analogies Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 5:13 pm
[…] Having a Mint? Mint-rosoft, Mint-Thousand-And-One: A Stats Oddyssey, The Mint Parade. I wonder how long that little lot, combined, took to think up? […]
Anthony Yeung Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 6:54 pm
All I have to say is that a third of everyone here reduced their mental functions to that of a 12-year old over a statistics package. All that kicking and screaming and whining and put-downs. Come on, people. Grow Up.
Jason Perkins Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 7:13 pm
Best $30 that I’ve spent on a web application.
Ed Sharrer Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 8:00 pm
This really has been an interesting little exchange, hasn’t it?
I find the whole thing fascinating. And I’m not talking about the product that half the web community is blogging about.
I don’t know David in the slightest, nor any of these cats. If anyone takes offense, I apologize in advance.
When the hype over Mint exploded this week, I kinda scratched my head a bit. Seems like a pretty little product, and $30 isn’t much cash, but I didn’t see what all the fuss was about to be honest. But that’s just it, “all the fuss” is just one person writing about their experience with the product… repeated many, many times over.
I have to admit, though, that when I saw that all the beta testers’ blogs had the exact same list of links to each other’s blogs (and in the same order, no less), it felt gimmacky. I’m not making a statement on anyone’s character or intentions here — everyone probably had the absolute best of intentions to help out a friend — but I’m just relaying my honest reaction.
I guess we all count on blogs (reasonably or otherwise) to be an organic process, so to see something that was so coordinated and even a bit contrived… it was disappointing. I think that speaks to incredible goodwill that these blog owners have built up in the online community. They’ve done a lot for so many and were only trying to help out a buddy. But it was a bit like attending an alumni event at your college and engaging in a conversation with a dean or professor you admire, only to realize halfway through the conversation that he/she was only buttering you up for a donation. Now that example is obviously a bit extreme, so turn that down several notches, but I think you get the picture. That list of referring links, in my mind, made the whole thing cross over from personal recommendation to product placement.
Having said that, what’s wrong with that? Nothing. More power to all those guys. Not only it is their personal blog space, but their friend — who has every right in the world to get the word out. I don’t blame them one bit… it was just a bit jarring because it was so unexpected, is all.
I still think we haven’t fully adapted to several things about this medium. The sheer immediacy of the feedback can be startling and the buzz generates so fast… it can make it appear so much bigger than it really is. Ask 50 people on the street tonight what Mint is, and they’ll tell you it’s a flavor, not a web app. But in the context of the “design community” it’s epic. Hard for any product to live up to that hype. The way I understand David’s original post, that’s where I think he was coming from (and not to say he went the right direction from there). I could be wrong.
What we also haven’t adjusted to is the highly personal nature of the medium. If David gripes about some company’s software on his blog… well, that’s some nameless company. It would be highly unlikely that the friends of the developer at said company would come firing back. But in this case, it wasn’t some nameless company… it a person. I’ve never met Shaun, but I feel pretty safe saying that he’s a person, not a commodity. Granted, he is a person selling a product in the public realm, but a person nonetheless and one that many in the community happen to know and feel like defending.
Then agin, if there’s anything I cringed at during this whole exchange, it was the tossing about of the T word. On the one hand, a person is being accused of jealousy - whether over another person’s popularity or “in” status or whatever. On the other hand, the accusors consider themselves high enough in the pecking order to label him a troll. Bit of a disconnect there. Firing off shots about a person’s age and perceived lack of accomplishments only exascerbates the problem and highlights the very cliqueishness that supposedly doesn’t exist. Very unseemly. Anyone else worry that we may be seeing the birth of a class system in the community?
This post is entirely too long, so I’ll close with this: It was entirely predictable that somebody would write a post as a backlash to the massive Mint hype… and it was equally predictable that there would be backlash against that person. It’s the vehemence that’s so bloodly surprising.
If anyone took offense, feel free to take it out on me at my very 1997-looking hacked-up site. There’s plenty of bad code to snipe at there. :}
Jacob Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 9:42 pm
Well said Ed!
Mike D. Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 10:12 pm
Ed: I wouldn’t really call it a class system but I *would* call it a “be judged on what comes out of your mouth” system. When I see something posted that I don’t agree with, the first thing I do is consider the source.
Is this person educated? Are they aware of the particulars of what we’re talking about? How much experience do they have with stuff like this? What have they done in the industry which might give them insight into what we’re talking about?
This industry is not about classes, but it *is* about credibility. If you’re going to badmouth other members of the community or call into question whether they “deserve” to make any money, you sure as hell better be prepared to have your own credentials called into question.
I look at this here site of David’s and I see a 22 year old beginner looking for attention. Let’s see how many cages I can rattle by pretending I know about economics, about software, about pricing, about beta testing, about publicity, and about every other of the 100 considerations that went into developing Mint. People here aren’t chastising David because he’s expressing opinions. They are chastising him because he’s expressing ignorant “statements of fact” which aren’t true. He’s projecting his own opinions on the rest of the world. As you get more experience in the world, you learn not to do this. David has not learned this yet.
Oliver Zheng Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 10:29 pm
I am on David’s stand in this case. Ed has given a very non-biased description of the argument here. I happen to think that Mint seems to be just a hype. But that’s as far as I will go.
Mike, if in your position, the degree of David’s education has anything to do with the credibility of his opinions, then there might be a different stance here for all of us.
Mike D. Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 10:37 pm
Oliver. Yes, my opinion is that it absolutely does. When I say “education”, I’m not talking necessarily about high school, college, or the like. I’m talking about whatever someone has gotten through in their life which “educates” them. I see nothing here which leads me to believe David is particularly qualified to know anything about software pricing, beta testing, or anything we’re talking about here besides the simple viewing of stats in a web browser. Part of being an influence in the world is speaking up when you have knowledge to share and shutting up when you don’t.
Kev Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 11:07 pm
Mike: In your first comment you said:
So, David… I guess I just need something explained to me: why is it necessary to *call someone* like Shaun “the Microsoft of web stats”? It’s clearly a *statement* meant to denigrate and I just don’t see the parallel, or the reason why anyone would suggest such a thing.
Reading the original post, I see this question:
Doesn’t this sort of make Shaun the Microsoft of web stats?
You then go on to say:
People here aren’t chastising David because he’s expressing opinions. They are chastising him because he’s expressing ignorant “statements of fact” which aren’t true. He’s *projecting his own opinions* on the rest of the world.
No one was ‘called’ anything regarding Microsoft and certainly no ’statements of fact’ were made in that regard.
On the subject of the beta testers I don’t know you but I do know Jon Hicks slightly via both our blogs and comments and I am very sure he is entirely above reproach but if I didn’t, I’d have to say your reaction to the original post would sow considerable doubts in my mind. David is way OTT in his remarks about the beta testers but your characterisation of both what ‘the industry’ considers important, David himself is I’m afraid equally OTT and does you no favours.
Eric Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 11:11 pm
By going back forth on this issue here, you guys only give the orginal post credibility.
If Firefox gets ‘dissed here next week, do you think their developers will come here to comment and rescue its reputation? Probably not.
Mike D. Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 11:34 pm
Kev –
You said: “No one was ‘called’ anything regarding Microsoft”
David said in his original post: “Doesn’t this sort of make Shaun the Microsoft of web stats?”
Please don’t tell me that you consider a statement with a question mark placed conveniently after it anything less than a statement.
This is starting to feel a lot like a bad Slashdot thread.
Jeff Croft Said,
September 8, 2005 @ 11:49 pm
I don’t really want to drag this on, but I do want to be clear about something: I, personally, was only offended by the assertion that the beta testers (of which I was one) were a hired group of people, paid to lavish Shaun with praise. That slandered my reputation, and I took offense. I felt I had to defend it.
Ed, your post was fair and accurate and I appericate your thoughts. I would like to be clear about something, though: the “list of link” you refer to at the end of the beta tester posts was not contrived. I see how it might have looked that way, but it was never discussed. The order that you refer to is the order in which we posted them. It was a simple organic thing that happened. Mike made a post about Mint. I made a post about Mint, and decided I should link Mike’s original. Mike went back and reciprocated that link. Keegan made a post and decided to link Mike and I. I edited my post to add his link. So did Mike. As other beta testers posted, they decided to follow suit. It was never discussed or planned. My point in all of this is that while our posts probably helped to hype Mint, they weren’t contrived and planned to do so.
As for “The T Word”: To me, someone is trolling when they are just trying to push buttons and piss people off. Making a statement that is so obviously false like, “Mint is totally useless for everyone” is clearly an attempt to irritate people and not a useful critique of a product — especially when you do this after it’s clear you are treading in sensitive waters. To me, David was definitely being troll-ish. Frankly, at that point, the whole thing felt like a really poor attempt at a Paul Scrivens impersonation.
David since apologized for his comments about beta testers, and I have no ill-will towards him at this point. The bottom line in all of this, though, is that there was no point in attacking the people involved with Mint. David should have kept his review to the product and not the people behind it. Personal attacks never cease to piss people off.
Joshua Blankenship Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 12:40 am
This has been the most fascinating thing to watch play out over the past few days. I’ll echo Ed’s sentiments about how this seems like such a huge hype, but only for a very, very small contingent of the general population.
But the immediacy of bloggers ranting about a product that released on MONDAY is borderline absurb. Thus far, I haven’t found anyone who actually bought Mint complaining about it.
Sure, some of them might have bought it based soley on Shaun’s rep and work up to this point (and is that bad? ShortStat was/is a handy app) or the rep/endorsement of the various beta-testers (who are all professionals, I might add, that have earned their stripes and my trust by consistently doing great work.)
But for the most part, I’d say most of the pople who bought Mint knew what they were getting and felt it was well-worth $30. And what the hell is $30 anyway? I probably spent $30 on lunch and dinner today, and I can assure you I won’t be using either of those meals everyday for the next year. Let’s have some perspective on the value of things.
So what are we left with? People complaining because:
1. Mint isn’t free. (”Everything should be free, dammit. Except MY work. Clients undervalue MY WORK. But i’m not paying $30 for an app.”) If it was $20, the same people would be complaining.
2. Mint isn’t a fully featured stats program with pie charts and graphs and bells and whistles that gets you dates with super models and washes your car. And I was never under the impression that it claimed to be.
3. Mint is a product that a talented web developer (who has freely contributed quite a bit of knowledge and a few handy things like ShortStat and IFR to the web community) decided to make available for purchase.
Not to sound like a broken record, but if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. If you think Mint doesn’t do something that it promises to do (like provide you with a quick glance at an intentionally limited number of stats for your site), then feel free to speak your mind in an educated, informed manner.
If you’re just pissed because a smart developer created a good product that delivers what it promises and is supported and endorsed by the beta users (and a few hundred of us “normal people”) who are willing to pay $30 for it… I don’t understand where you’re coming from other than negativity for the sake of negativity.
Kev Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 2:56 am
Please don’t tell me that you consider a statement with a question mark placed conveniently after it anything less than a statement.
Please don’t tell me you expect me to play hair splitting games in the comments of someones blog.
I said before I don’t know you and I don’t but you always seemed better than this. Its not about how you or I interpretted what was written but on the intent. You saw bad intent. I see more than enough room for doubting your interpretation.
Andy Hume Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 5:31 am
I’m inclined to agree that no-one has come out of this looking particularly rosey.
I don’t believe that David set out to write a trollish piece, but he should have kept it objective and never made it personal. At the same time it is interesting that certain Beta Boys felt it neccessary to defend themselves so vehemently, despite questioning the integrity of the post very early on.
Still it’s been good for a laugh - long may it continue!
Joshua Kendall Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 9:12 am
Mint isn’t a fully featured stats program with pie charts and graphs and bells and whistles that gets you dates with super models and washes your car. And I was never under the impression that it claimed to be.
1. It doesn’t have pie charts and graphs (which is why some people don’t want to buy it), but with the Pepper API someone could create a Charts/Graph Pepper…maybe if no one else does it I will give it a shot when I finally get Mint.
2. The super model thing…I think Mint 2.0 for that one. ![]()
3. Washing the car…only if your server is waterproof ![]()
Ed Sharrer Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 11:28 am
Jeff: Thank you for the reply. You certainly didn’t owe me (or anybody) an explanation, but it was appreciated… not to mention instructive.
I hope I expressed adequately in my comment that I didn’t make any judgments about the various blog owners. I realize that audience perceptions don’t always match up with the speaker’s intentions, so I tried to take a step back. Just thought it might be helpful to report how things seemed out here in the dimmer corners of the blogsphere.
Mike D: I hear what you’re saying. I’ve actually been wondering about the whole “class system” thing for awhile now, so I don’t want you to think this bit of drama prompted that thought. I still haven’t wrapped my head around it yet. That’s quite a lengthy examination waiting to happen, isn’t it? Perhaps someone more qualified than me will write about it someday.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I honestly learned a few things from this exchange.
Mike D. Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 12:15 pm
Please don’t tell me you expect me to play hair splitting games in the comments of someones blog.
It’s more like bullshit-splitting, Kev. You make a false statement about no one being called anyone with regards to Microsoft. I call you on it and show you why you’re wrong. You change the subject. Hummm… such productive discourse this is.
qrayg Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 1:40 pm
@Jason Santa Maria
This is what I was referring to.
Something that no one could eeeeeeever find useful. Step back and look at what you are writing here, champ. It downright reeks of jealously and cries for attention.
Sarcasm or not, it’s not called for. My respect for you has been destroyed. But, from your comments on this post I can tell that you could care less what I (or anyone besides you) think.
Kev Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 6:04 pm
It’s more like bullshit-splitting, Kev. You make a false statement about no one being called anyone with regards to Microsoft. I call you on it and show you why you’re wrong. You change the subject. Hummm… such productive discourse this is.
Er, what? No one *was* called anything with regard to Microsoft. The post author posted a question. If you choose not to see it, then thats your perogative but its there nontheless. So far Mike, the only person who’s tried to deflect attention away from that is you.
No, this isn’t productive at all. Productive would have been a fair review in the first place tempered with a fair critique of that review. A few people seem stunned that anyone has the temerity to dare have a negative opinion on Mint at all. Thats as bewildering to me as why the post author decided to attack the Beta testing team.
James Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 7:36 pm
The post author posted a question.
Yeah. A question. A rhetorical question.
Mike D. Said,
September 9, 2005 @ 7:50 pm
Kev: What if I posted something like this –
“Doesn’t Fred seem like an idiot?”
Is that a question? Nope. It’s a statement veiled as a question. David said: “Doesn’t this sort of make Shaun the Microsoft of web stats?”
There is no difference.
Kev Said,
September 10, 2005 @ 2:17 am
And as I mentioned above, thats your interpretation to which you’re entitled. Unfortunately it doesn’t mean you’re right.
Further, it led me to have a first impression after I read your inital response that whilst you may well be right, you may well also be wrong. There is room for doubt. And whilst there is, your increasingly personal attack on the author was a sad thing to behold.
Should he have attacked you or the rest of the beta testing team? No. Because he did should you have attacked him? The answer to that depends on whether you still have a playground mentality or not. What you accuse him of casts an inauspicious shadow over you too I’m afraid.
Mike D. Said,
September 10, 2005 @ 12:43 pm
Kev: I honestly don’t care what you think of me. I am not known as one to call people out or attack them for no reason. If you feel it’s wrong to hold people responsible for their bullshit. then we come from different places. I call it like I see it.
brilliantdays.com Said,
September 10, 2005 @ 6:55 pm
The sweet taste of mint
Yesterday I installed Shaun Inman’s new mint on my site. Three words: I love it. Three reasons: 1) It looks fantastic - AND displays close to everything I would like too see of vistor data for my site (with the…
Eric Said,
September 10, 2005 @ 10:10 pm
Mike, let it go man. My god, don’t you guys have work to do? I check back 2 days later and you’re still at it. A malformed post on a nobody blog and you’re going back and forth on this thing. Why don’t you let Shaun defend himself? Maybe he’s got better stuff to do to…
Guess what, forget the price. If people want to buy it they’ll buy it. No one here is HELPING the situation… technical merits? design merits? Why don’t you educate David P. on how to construct a proper critique then?
As you said, the kid’s 22. I don’t know about you, but I was talking like I knew everything back then too (to Mark Cuban, no less — at least he offered me constructive criticism)
Mike D. Said,
September 11, 2005 @ 2:02 pm
Ok Eric. For you, I’ll stop now. ![]()
Ed Sharrer Said,
September 12, 2005 @ 12:23 pm
Again with the “nobody” thing? I would be curious to know what qualifications one must posses to be “somebody”, or for that matter, to be qualified to label another person as “nobody”.
I dub this thread: “Phoenix Realm - The Clique Strikes Back”
Eric Said,
September 12, 2005 @ 9:15 pm
I include myself in the “nobody” department, so don’t sweat the labels, its all stats… and really, isn’t that what started this whole post anyway?
Eric Said,
September 12, 2005 @ 9:17 pm
well, this mike link
David Said,
September 13, 2005 @ 3:59 am
I was a beta tester and I am definitely not a member of some “clique.” I resent the notion made by the author and his condemnation of the process that Shaun followed. I rarely ever read these damn blogs but this line of fictional commentary really bothers me.
FraketyFrak Said,
September 13, 2005 @ 1:31 pm
All of you need to find another hobby. You’re getting hot under the collar over something pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Take a deep breath. Go for a walk. Hug an angry cat.
“groovy mother” Said,
September 14, 2005 @ 7:02 pm
Stats the way (uh-huh uh-huh) I like it
I saw some of the buzz for Mint — a new webstats package — floating around last week.1 I took a nosey at the pretty brochureware site, glanced at the $30 pricetag, saw there was no live demo or way to try-before-you-buy, and clicked on my m…
Alex Said,
September 18, 2005 @ 1:03 pm
You’re all very amusing. Even you “haves” that stepped down here for a moment to read what us “have nots” have to say. Get real, people. This isn’t about Mint or the information behind this review. It’s about who this heated argument is over. Had Shaun not written Mint, but Daniel from Nowhere, Mississippi, no one would give a fuck rather “Choke on Mint” was written or not.
You feel like it’s your responsibility to come over here with your huge “I go to SxSW and I’m featured on CSS galleries all over, bow down to me” doing your best to defend Shaun and his holy Mint application to make yourselves look better.
Louther Than Bombs » Blog Archive » Mint Said,
September 22, 2005 @ 1:44 am
[…] Esta bien es bonita, y? o sea no me mal entiendan no tengo nada en contra de que el tipo que es un hijoputa capisimo quiera cobrar 30 dolares mientras hayan giles dispuestos a hacerlo, lo que me emputece es la manga de weones que hicieron de betatesters y por eso seguro recivieron una version gratis y ahora te venden la pomada sin dar ninguna explicacion mas convincente de que es el hype y se ve bien. Como no se dan cuenta que pierden credibilidad y finalmente engalan a las personas que los consideran como reales lideres de opinion. Notable es como hacen defensa corporativa contra los pocos gringos pillos que no se suben al hype. http://phoenixrealm.com/2005/09/06/choke-on-a-mint/ […]
asa Said,
September 26, 2005 @ 8:40 pm
i agree with alex that this smacks of a holier-than-thou-fest. i certainly have enjoyed reading some of the posters sites, mike, jason, etc. but you guys sure come off as the snobbish “elite.” how bout you all back off and ignore this so-called 22-yr old know-nothin (which i take offense to as im in my early 20’s) rather than try tearing him a new one.
how about expressing your disdain at his posting in some other way than this?
its kinda sad watching the “big names” take a big fall when they show how rabidly inbred and close-minded they are.
William Hamby Said,
October 12, 2005 @ 1:25 pm
I like Shaun’s work as much as anyone else. I enjoy visiting his site and reading what he has to say. I pat him on the back everytime he conjures up a new way of doing something or looking at something. I also like Mint’s presentation - very neat and clean. However, my web hosting plan includes Urchin at no additional cost, so I feel the Mint fee would hardly be a cost effective solution for me - Mint alone costs more than my entire hosting plan.
Sian Said,
October 13, 2005 @ 6:38 pm
Oh boy, this post has turned into an out and out handbags at dawn slug fest.
Since my original trackback I now have Mint installed on my server and so far I like it. With a few additional pepper’s installed I’ve been tracking specific areas and trends effectively, although I will freely admit that I don’t use Mint on it’s own, I still use Urchin as well. The combination of the two has helped me immensely, especially since I’ve altered my site architecture and taxonomy over the last few weeks.
As for there being a charge, I believe that it’s Shaun Inman’s choic to charge or not to charge. I’m trying to earn myself some extra money by displaying Google Adsense and Amazon Ads and I’m sure that if I was a proficient coder and could conjure up something to sell I’m sure I would give it a go. It does come down to personal choice as to whether you feel Mint is worth purchasing, you don’t, I now do.
Anyway, all the best Kevin.
Sian Said,
October 13, 2005 @ 6:53 pm
Fuck now I am embarrased I just called you Kevin, David. Please tell me your name is David or I will get even more embarrased. Bollocks.
David Said,
October 13, 2005 @ 6:56 pm
My name is David.
It does not matter what you call me… Though my given name is probably the best way to get a response. ![]()
I am glad you like Mint, and after looking at some of the Peppers, and seeing that people are developing them and releasing them for free, Mint + Peppers = Something worth having. I am not changing my stance on Mint alone, but I might write up something giving a little credit to the Pepper writers.
Phoenixrealm » Mint: Peppers Fixed Mint Said,
November 27, 2005 @ 8:31 pm
[…] A long while back I was rather mean in what I said about Shaun Inman’s Mint. I had tried a few demos of the software and was not impressed with what I saw, especially in comparision to the free offerings, even Shaun’s old Shortstat application. […]
Dan Grossman Said,
May 25, 2006 @ 1:51 pm
Well, if you’re looking for something between Mint and Urchin (fresh + summary, numbers + graphs, but still an AJAX-powered interface [which degrades for older browsers without losing functionality])…
It’s free.
Richard Said,
December 21, 2006 @ 8:03 am
I’d like to add http://gostats.com to your list of alternative stats packages. It’s worth it to give it a try.
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